So after posting my original article “Evidence of Jesus Is Meaningless” I received plenty of feedback and arguments from one particular christian who challenged what it said in it several ways.
https://thebuybulljournal.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/evidence-of-jesus-is-meaningless/
Although the arguments mentioned by the christian were ridiculous and rather a waste of time, it did occur to me that I might aswell put the information gathered while answering the desperate and delusional christian all together for a second article with much better information to show how all EVIDENCE OF JESUS IS MEANINGLESS.
Afterall, if that was the best that a christian could do and they threw everything they could at me, then I would be crazy not to put all the counter arguments together, so hopefully some other Atheists don’t have to go through all that and can just simply send them my article to make a point.
So here we go….
So it occured to me that there were a few sites that show how the “evidence” for Jesus in the 1st century were meaningless, but not as many of the ridiculous pieces as christians present.
So I thought it would be useful and helpful to expose the meaninglessness and dishonesty of what christians were trying to pass off as “evidence of Jesus” all together, since christians will often throw these ridiculous little time wasters at us.
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So let’s go through a list of claimed “evidence” of Jesus then and expose the meaninglessness.
1) SUETONIUS 69-122 AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suetonius_on_Christians
In “I Claudius” it is written:
“Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.”
Also another from Nero 16 which is supposed to be talking about 64 AD (remember that Suetonius wasn’t born til 69 AD) only mentions “christians”.
“”During his reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made: a limit was set to expenditures; the public banquets were confined to a distribution of food; the sale of any kind of cooked viands in the taverns was forbidden, with the exception of pulse and vegetables, whereas before every sort of dainty was exposed for sale. Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition. He put an end to the diversions of the chariot drivers, who from immunity of long standing claimed the right of ranging at large and amusing themselves by cheating and robbing the people. The pantomimic actors and their partisans were banished from the city.”
a) “Chresto” not “Christo” which is what it should have been, simply meant “slaves”, or “useful”.
b) I Claudius wasn’t written until 110 AD.
c) Nero 16 in The Twelve Caesars wasn’t published until 121 AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Caesars
d) These are still written in 2nd century only and not the 1st.
e) Still based entirely on parrotted christian hearsay about what brainwashed christians believed.
f) Claudius reigned from 41-54 AD
– Wasn’t emperor when Jesus was supposedly crucified then.
– Even if Claudius happened to be alive at the time of Jesus death in 30-33AD, Suetonius still only makes a reference to nothing that can be proven was a reference to Jesus, but of CHRISTIANS which Suetonius describes as lowly immoral vermin basically.
– 64 years later this was written about the event and about a meaningless verse talkng about a bunch of people that both Nero and Suetonius thought of as idiots and lowlifes (the christians he referenced).
g) 80 years after Jesus supposedly died.
– Time is a factor and anyone who tries to say that it isn’t is lying, grasping at straws and showing how desperate they are.
– Even 5 years without evidence, or eyewitnesses for anything happening and based on hearsay, makes something completely meaningless as evidence.
– The more time goes by without eyewitness sources or any evidence that backs it up, is not only unreasonable, illogical and insane for someone to say “time is irrelevant”, but an insult to whoever they are saying it to’s intelligence.
– Think of someone testifying in a court for a murder and they didn’t know the victim, they weren’t there and didn’t know any more details than what they heard on the news.
STILL DEFINITELY NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS BEING A REAL PERSON!
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2) THALLUS in 52 AD was said to have written a reference to the blackout eclipse that happened when Jesus was killed.
a) This blackening of the sky is the same as the dead walking into town and rising from the grave, they never happened.
b) This is just another example of nonsense that was copied from Mark and then to Matthew and Luke.
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/mark.html
c) The gospel of John doesn’t mention the eclipse, just Matthew, Mark and Luke.
– The Thallus reference is the only outside source from the bible that speaks of the eclipse.
– The gospels are completely unreliable as history, or anything else but fiction.
As Bart Ehrman says:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A3qXQt6dYME
As Richard Carrier also explains:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cKD3_46Sr88
– The gospel of John doesn’t mention the sky going black, but more importantly is the fact that Paul never mentions it either.
– Josephus never references either any of Thallus’ work or anything about the eclipse, or the walking dead.
d) This record of the work of Thallus is nothing but a retelling done almost 200 years later of Sextus Julius Africanus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextus_Julius_Africanus
e) This makes the work completely non-credible.
f) Also, even if there was an eclipse of some kind within a few years of 33 AD is only evidence that there was an eclipse.
g) This is supposed to be like Joshua 10 in the old testament where the sun stands still (which is impossible) however a solar eclipse if it did happen would just mean that there was a solar eclipse. So what?
h) As it stands this is a meaningless reference from someone who claims to have read someone else’s work, which we have to take his word for.
i) Sextus, who claimed this reference of Thallus, was a christian who’s life was dedicated to christianity full time (motive of lying and fabrication).
– It could even have been forged by the famous forger Eusebius who is famous for lying and forging.
j) The fact that Thallus wasn’t a christian is irrelevant, but the fact that he was quoted by multiple christians and we have to take their word hundreds of years after the fact IS relevant.
STILL DEFINITELY NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS BEING A REAL PERSON!
For an amazingly detailed breakdown of the reference from Thallus please read historian Richard Carrier’s brief essay on Thallus:
http://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html
Then his more detailed essay on Thallus:
http://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jacoby.html
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3) PHLEGON who was claimed to have written several works mentioning Jesus in the 2nd century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegon_of_Tralles
a) Phlegon’s works were written over a 100 years after Jesus’s supposed death.
b) There is no evidence of any of Pheglon’s work and it’s only mention is something that is only referred to by the folllowing devout and also non-credible christians:
[1]- Sextus Juilius Africanus (200 years after Jesus supposedly died)
[2]- Origen (200 years after Jesus supposedly died)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen
[3]- Eusebius (300 years after Jesus supposedly died)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius
http://www.christianity-revealed.com/cr/files/fathereusebiustheforger.html
Probably one of the biggest reasons christianity even exists at all because he is said to be christianity’s master forger.
[4]- Saint. Jerome (300 years after Jesus supposedly died)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome
[5]- Philipon (500 years after Jesus supposedly died)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Philoponus
c) Again the same thing as with Tallus, Phlegon’s work is only supported by christians who’s life consisted of being brainwashed and worshipping Jesus.
– This is no different than this era’s gigantic biblical fraud Ron Wyatt.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1511-ron-wyatt-the-indiana-jones-of-the-sda-church
d) 200-500 years later and being nothing more than a claim of someone else’s claim makes this claim completely meaningless, untrustworthy, unreliable, biased, unproven.
e) This is of course just another example of the church CLAIMING something absurd and lying for it’s self serving purposes.
f) Typical misleading dishonesty often shown by today’s apologists.
– They try to pass their OPINION off as fact.
– They know people will only hear what they want.
– They know people will convince themselves over the most ridiculous things that make no logical sense.
– The sources referencing Phlegon are untrustworthy basing it on where the sources come from.
g) If anyone dare say anything remotely resembling how it’s unfair to dismiss christian sources repeating hearsay from someone else’s hearsay, please remind them of the following:
– The 11 entire books in the new testament are confirmed forgeries:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/13/half-of-new-testament-forged-bible-scholar-says/
– The enormous number of books taken out of the bible because they were forgeries called “the apocrypha”:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha
Yes “apocryphal” means “dubious authenticity”
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha
– The multiple forgeries IN the gospels themselves added later by scribes:
John 5:4
John 5:7
John 8:7
John 8:11
Luke 24:12
Luke 22:20
Luke 22:44
Luke 24:51
Mark 16:9-20
http://edward-t-babinski.blogspot.ca/2013/04/christian-forgeries-endings-of-gospel.html?m=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forged
– The entire old testament that is disproved by modern science and history.
– We have Eusebius the “Godfather of the church” as a confirmed forger:
http://www.christianity-revealed.com/cr/files/fathereusebiustheforger.html
– The fact that when it all comes down to it the very last thing that believers cling to is “that Paul knew his imaginary friend in outer space’s brother”.
So yes we have very good reason to not trust christian sources and no reason why we should.
– And if anyone should happen to say this is a “genetic fallacy” and makes this argument invalid, well they can say that if it makes them feel better, but it still doesn’t hide the fact that the people they get their information from are nothing but lying manipulative forgers with an agenda to dishonestly mislead.
– As Richard Carrier explains in the same article that he explains and debunks Thallus, he also does with Phlegon.
STILL DEFINITELY NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING!
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4) MARA BAR-SERAPION in (sometime written between 73 AD-200 AD apparently wrote a letter from prison to his son and apologists attempt to claim that Jesus was mentioned in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_bar_Serapion
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/4mara95.html
This is completely ridiculous and absolutely misleading why anyone would use this as evidence.
a) Doesn’t mention Jesus by name.
b) Mentions Socrates and Pythagoras, but not Jesus (Yehoshuah, then Iesous since he didn’t get the name Jesus until the 16th century by the church).
http://jesus8880.com/chapters/gematria/yehoshua.htm
c) Was 40 years later from when Jesus was supposedly killed.
d) How would Jesus even be considered a king?
– Jesus was only documented in the new testament which is a political tool that is completely non-historical.
– Jesus was only documented in a book that is based on nothing but hearsay, by people who never knew him, couldn’t have known him and never claimed to know him.
– Since when are cult leaders kings?
– How if someone is a “king” do they get put to death like a mosquito?
As Bart Ehrman himself explains:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YftlQ-Ox9VM
e) The fact of the time frame of Socrates and Pythagoras are 5th century and 6th century B.C (which are in the same paragraph as the “wise jewish king” reference.
– So Mara Bar-Seropian could easily have been referring to someone else in the past 600 years, or more.
– Again, no name was mentioned.
f) There hadn’t been a Jewish king in over 600 years since Mara Bar-Seropian had supposedly wrote that letter to his son and mentioned “the wise king”.
– All records of jewish kings were lost and all the jewish kings mentioned in the old testament have no records outside to even prove they existed.
– This means that that particular actual king could have hypothetically existed.
g) Since he was making reference to people who were already in that time area, then he could of been refering to someone who was actually a Jewish king.
– This would in no way be Jesus.
h) In Mara Bar-Serapion’s letter he says that the Jews executed their wise King.
– Isn’t it funny then that the Romans executed Jesus and NOT the Jews?
i) As it turns out though even if he were referencing Jesus it would just be HEARSAY and nothing else.
j) It could have been written anywhere from 73 AD-200 AD
– As shown:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mara.html
STILL DEFINITELY NOT EVIDENCE OF JESUS HAVING EXISTED, OR EVEN BEING HISTORICAL!
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5) LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA 125-200 AD wrote a satire which he basically calls the christians “morons” but in different words.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian
a) Was written over a 100 years after Jesus’s supposed death.
b) Was talking about brainwashed christians, not Jesus.
c) Lucian wasn’t even born til 125 AD.
d) Proves there were brainwashed christians 100 years after the date of Jesus’ supposed death.
– There was proof of people who were brainwashed to believe in Zeus, Odin, Allah and Charles Manson being God.
– What christians believe in Zeus, Odin, Allah and Charles Manson being God?
– These people believe these guys are Jesus:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Cv5hZfOmk
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ML2Oa4Oigvo
And yes Charles Manson:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/manson/skelter_6.html
e) Now if any brainwashed religious individual should bring up that “time isn’t an argument and isn’t an issue” let me remind you of a few things:
Lucian was born several years after the time Jesus was supposed to be killed. 92 years AFTER Jesus supposedly died.
– Lucian wasn’t there.
– Lucian never knew Jesus.
– Everything he knew about Jesus was simply hearsay that he heard from christians over 130 years later, not 100, but 130 years later when he wrote the satire.
– This is no different than mormons talking about Joseph Smith’s golden plates 130 years later in 1950 to people and someone writing a TV show talking about how stupid they thought that mormons are.
> This is not evidence that Smith actually did get golden plates from the angel Moroni.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Moroni
f) Now if there are people stupid enough to say that “Lucian could have had some unknown information we aren’t aware of about Jesus”.
Let me remind you….
– They clearly missed the part about Lucian not believing anything about christianity, or Jesus.
– Lucian is simply describing “christians” and mocking them (it isn’t that hard to do and christians make it really easy).
– In the same story Lucian talks about Zeus and Hercules, but I don’t see christians jumping on that and saying that this is evidence for Zeus and Hercules, which is another religion we call “Greek mythology”.
– Not only did Lucian think that christians were idiots, but considered believing in christiany “a sin against the greek gods” in his satire.
– AGAIN, Lucian is talking about CHRISTIANITY the same way Monty Python made fun of christianity in “Life Of Brian”. That movie is no more evidence of Jesus than Lucian’s satire.
– We have people claiming to have seen the Lochness Monster in multiple sightings, so if Lucian wrote a satire about people that saw the Lochness monster , does that mean we are supposed to take that as evidence of the Lochness monster?
g) Now should anybody show you the exact passage and start screaming that “it’s not talking about christianity, it’s talking about Jesus”….
“Here’s the Lucian quote in question:
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. … You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains their contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
Specifically about this part;
“Christians…Worship a man, to this day…and was crucified on that account.” “…and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.”
– Remind them of the following:
> He’s talking about what a bunch of people believed who he thought were both delusional and stupid and nothing more.
> The christians (that he thought were idiots) believed in a non-existent leader who has no evidence that he existed.
> That leader that he’s talking about is something that was common christian hearsay that everyone was aware of what the kooky christians believed.
> This is no different than the common knowledge CHRISTIANS have today about what the kooky mormans believe about Moroni was said to have visited Joseph Smith and given him golden plates.
g) Should they say something stupid like this…
“Unless we witness an event or know a person ourselves, all we know of historical events and people of history is from what others tell us. And yes, when it comes to ancient history, we have fewer and fewer people to rely upon than we do today, which is exactly why historians go to such lengths to study a text from history and not just ignore it because it wasn’t written the day of an event.”
– Point out that they are saying that we should just believe everything we hear? This is all they are saying.
– Ask them why then they don’t believe in Zeus, Shiva, Allah, Mithros, Odin, mormonism, or scientology?
> Then remind them that they weren’t there.
STILL DEFINITELY NOT EVIDENCE OF JESUS AT ALL!
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6) TACITUS 56-117 AD was a Roman historian and in 115 AD wrote something in one of his many writings which mentions how stupid and crazy he thought christians were, mentions “Christus” and talks about Pontius Pilot killing Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ
The passage is called Annals, in book 15, chapter 44.
– Annals, was a 16 book work, however books “7-10 and parts of books 5, 6, 11 and 16 are missing. Book 6 ends with the death of Tiberius and books 7–12 presumably covered the reigns of Caligula and Claudius.”
http://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Annals_(Tacitus)/Book_15#44
Here it is:
“But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man’s cruelty, that they were being destroyed.”
a) This only has Tacitus talking about the superstition that christians believed, NOTHING ELSE, so basically just more repeating of common christian hearsay that everyone was aware of.
b) When speaks of Pontius Pilot, Tacitus is simply repeating THE CLAIM that christians made, that’s it.
c) If he actually had documented verification of the execution then he would have also verified Jesus NAME, whatever that was.
d) Tacitus merely repeats that they followed “Christus” from what Tacitus was told by common christian hearsay.
– “Christus” means “messiah”, or “anointed one”.
– This just means that “they followed some guy”.
– It’s still a 2nd century claim that is based on hearsay 82 years later from the time of Jesus’s supposed death, by someone simply repeating a people’s delusion and nothing else.
– This is no different than simply restating what Mormons believed over 150 years ago.
– Do christians believe any of the claims that mormons made about Joseph Smith?
> Doubtful
e) Said to be a forgery by some scholars since it wasn’t even discovered til the 14th century.
> Here are some really good arguments for it being a forgery:
http://www.fromchristtojesus.org/English/DrillDown/Tacitus.htm
f) Even if it wasn’t a forgery it is still just parotted hearsay and nothing else.
g) If a christian should tell you that “scholars like Bart Ehrman think it’s genuine and based it’s based on information that Tacitus had access to, then do tell them they should read Bart’s book “Did Jesus Exist?” where he clearly says that Tacitus got his info of this section he wrote from “christian hearsay”.
– Should the person say that “Bart Ehrman believes Jesus was historical”.
Remind them of the following:
> Bart Ehrman bases his evidence for Jesus off of Paul’s writings because Paul supposedly knew Jesus’ brothers and knew certain things.
> Then remind them that Paul called followers of Jesus “brother” and Paul got all his info from Jesus in outer space and from old testament scripture (so basically his imaginary friend).
As Richard Carrier explains:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2839
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0EulhS8EkJk
Here’s another good one:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2012/12/what-did-paul-know-about-jesus-not-much/
STILL DEFINITELY NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING THAT PROVES JESUS WAS EVEN A REAL PERSON!
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7) PLINY THE YOUNGER 61-113 AD wrote a letter to the Emperor and mentioned christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians
Look under XCVI, XCVII and XCVIII for the specific letter:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2811/2811-h/2811-h.htm#link2H_4_0208
Or just look hear:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/pliny.html
– This really is mind-blowing that anybody would use this as evidence, but being dishonestly misleading really is what apologetics is all about isn’t it?
– Again, people just want to hear what they want to hear and the people who use these evidences have been told for years why these claims are meaningless, but they insist on using them anyways. Surprise surprise. Shame.
Okay back to Pliny The Younger….
– Here’s the big argument christians have right here from this piece of the exchange Pliny had with Emperor Trajan:
“A libel was sent to me, though without an author, containing many names [of persons accused]. These denied that they were Christians now, or ever had been. They called upon the gods, and supplicated to your image, which I caused to be brought to me for that purpose, with frankincense and wine; they also cursed Christ; none of which things, it is said, can any of those that are ready Christians be compelled to do; so I thought fit to let them go.”
(The letters and exchange were quite larger than this above piece and there were multiple mentions of “christians” and “christ”)
a) He never wrote these letters til 110-112 AD.
– This is 79 years later from when Jesus was claimed to have been killed.
– Not even in the 1st century.
b) Pliny the younger wasn’t born til almost 30 years AFTER Jesus’s supposed death!
c) Pliny was talking about CHRISTIANS!
d) He’s not talking about Jesus.
– Pliny doesn’t mention “Jesus”.
– When he mentions “Christ” he’s talking about the HEARSAY that was common knowledge that all christians blabbed about.
> This is no different than talking about Harry Potter at a Harry Potter convention.
> He doesn’t talk about Jesus the man that he knew because of evidence, or that he knew existed, just the “christ” which is the equivalent to someone talking about Big Bird’s imaginary friend Snuffy.
– He isn’t giving us details of Jesus’ life, or saying he was there when he died and saw anything supernatural like even a miracle Jesus was said to have done.
– So we have proof that Pliny was aware that there were brainwashed people, who thought that this Christ character killed himself, to save them from himself, because he was going to kill them, unless he was killed first, because he loved them so much that he wanted to kill them.
e) As explained here about why Pliny’s letter is suspicious:
– Is possible that the letter is a forgery anyways.
– Could even have been written in the 15th century.
f) Should a christian attempt to waste your time by saying that “there is significance because Pliny was a hostile witness, not a christian and had no agenda to mislead”…..
Tell them:
– Pliny’s talking about what a bunch of morons christians are and their silly belief in their imaginary friend.
– Jesus was claimed to have died 30 years before Pliny was born and which there is no evidence of existing.
– This is no different than if someone today documented about themselves “They think people who are obsessed with Pokemon are idiots and hate anything to do with Pokemon”.
> Does not make actual Pokemon real.
g) We have evidence people believed in other gods.
– Because we know that people believed in greek gods and many countless others DOES NOT prove that the greek gods existed.
– Christians are quite aware that Hercules and Zeus were not gods even though we know that people believed in them.
– We also know that people worshipped Osiris who evolved into Serapis and for a 1000 years they worshipped him.
STILL DEFINITELY NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING REGARDING JESUS EVEN EXISTING WHATSOEVER!
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8) CELSUS 177 AD Explained simply what he had believed that Jesus was a bastard child and that he learned magic from the Egyptians and tried to pass himself off as a god.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsus
Mind-blowing that people would use this as evidence, it really is.
a) He’s only talking about the religion of christianity and how he didn’t believe it and that he was offering what to him was a plausible and actual truth of what he thought REALLY happened, not what the religion claimed.
b) This was over 130 years after Jesus’s supposed death was claimed to have happened.
c) This is not an eyewitness account of anything.
d) 130 years later only AGAIN proves that there were crazy brainwashed people named “christians” but nothing else.
e) This says Jesus was a bastard child, not verifying anything about being born a virgin.
– The virgin birth story was just something inserted into The Book Of Matthew and made up when copied from The Book Of Mark, which it has been confirmed to have been copied by.
As already shown…
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/mark.html
– Should any christian attempt to criticize you for using the bible as a reference to debunk the bible by mentioning the virgin birth….
> Remind them that they are just wasting your time and that they knew what you meant (that both references about Jesus by Celsus and the bible are ridiculous).
> Remind them that you don’t believe either one and that you don’t believe Jesus was a sorcerer either and neither do they.
f) Celsus was a christianity critic and thought christianity was ridiculous.
g) If the christian throws the fact that what Celsus wrote has the name “Jesus” in it (if some of the points you make is that Jesus didn’t get the name ‘Jesus’ til the 16th century)…..
Remind them:
– This is a translation.
– This isn’t within the 1st century.
– This is still a story that says Jesus was a bastard, but had a deadbeat dad.
-This is still a story where Jesus was a wizard and that there were other wizards and that the christian doesn’t believe the Celsus story either.
– That since they don’t believe the story from Celsus is true either that they really are wasting your time bringing it up.
STILL DEFINITELY NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING PROVING JESUS!
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9) TITUS FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS 37-101 AD was said to have written about Jewish history in 93-94 AD in Antiquities of the Jews” and makes references to Jesus in a section of it now called “The Testimonium Flavium”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimonium_Flavianum
http://michaelsherlockauthor.blogspot.ca/2013/11/forging-historical-jesus-josephus-fraud.html?m=1
This ridiculous claim of evidence of Jesus is one that probably is the one most referenced to by christians.
a) Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, or christianity and was simply referencing the religion and Hebrew scriptures.
– Josephus was an orthodox Jew.
b) This wasn’t written til 94 BC which was 61 years after Jesus supposedly died.
c) Also that scholars have confirmed the Josephus Jesus references to have been forgeries that were inserted over 250 years later.
– Assumed to be Eusebius who did the forgeries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius_of_Caesarea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_History_(Eusebius)
– As Richard Carrier explains:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4391
d) The Jesus references should have been throughout all of Josephus’ works if Jesus existed, so why wasn’t he?
– The evidence of Josephus’s work regarding Jesus being forged is overwhelming, with countless reasons why it IS FORGED!
e) Christianity’s greatest piece of evidence of Jesus is actually christianity’s greatest evidence how it is nothing but, fraud, lying, deception and brainwashing.
f) If Josephus was writing about Jesus it doesn’t mean that he thought Jesus existed.
– Did Josephus know Jesus? No.
– Could Josephus provide anything that even remotely passes as evidence? No.
– Was everything Josephus saying, that wasn’t overly said to be a forgery, just simple hearsay? Yes.
g) When Josephus REFERENCED Heracles was he showing EVIDENCE Heracles existed, or referencing?
– He didn’t believe Heracles existed either.
– Christians don’t believe Heracles existed.
– So what is the problem?
h) Why did Josephus make no reference to his own father mentioning Jesus if Jesus was to have existed?
– Josephus’ father would have known about Jesus wouldn’t he?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_(father_of_Josephus)
– Nope. No reference of even his father mentioning Jesus.
i) So funny that in Josephus’ writings there was barely anything said about Jesus (the christ) but many words were said about these other Jesus’.
– “He made mention of approximately twenty different people, all with the name Jesus, and that some of these characters included; Jesus the son of Sapphias, Jesus the son of Gamala, Jesus the son of Phabet, Jesus the son of Sie, Jesus the son of Fabus, Jesus the son of Thias, Jesus the son of Gamaliel, Jesus the son of Damneus, Jesus the brother of Onias, Jesus the brother of John, Jesus the Galilean, who was a great military commander and many others”. (From Michael Sherlock’s Forging the Historical Jesus- The Jesus Fraud).
j) As I said before though for multiple reasons Josephus is definitely not evidence for Jesus’ existence but merely evidence for the following:
– Evidence of the desperation of christians.
– Evidence of the dishonesty of christians.
– Evidence that christians will say anything.
– Evidence that if christians didn’t lie, mislead and deceive people then they couldn’t do apologetics at all.
– Evidence that christianity is nothing but a waste of time.
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STILL DEFINITELY NOT PROOF OF JESUS EXISTING! LIKE REALLY REALLY DEFINITELY NOT!
10) JEWISH TALMUD 400-1200 AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud
http://jmcfarland.hubpages.com/hub/Debunking-the-Historical-Jesus-Part-1-Tacitus-and-the-Tallmud
a) Is written hundreds of years later than when Jesus supposedly died.
b) The entire history of Jesus is completely inaccurate than the NT version.
– Was sentenced to be stoned to death.
– Was hung instead.
– Was sentenced for sorcery, not blasphemy.
– Was executed by Jews, not Romans.
– Wasn’t even written about depicted in the same century as the NT.
– Many many other reasons.
STILL DEFINITELY NOT PROOF OF ANYTHING!
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So there you have it.
– Links.
– Reasons why the “evidence” is not evidence.
– Reasons why all the sources are completely meaningless.
Reminding people that if any apologist submits these “pieces of evidence of Jesus” to you, that THEY KNOW they are lying and are aware of all these points I have brought up.
If someone isn’t an apologist and presents these to you then they probably just haven’t researched them and are simply victims of deception and brainwashing.
– Do make them aware.
– If you don’t then they will keep on spreading the lies and brainwash others.
– Show them the truth by showing the lies.
Reminding everyone again how meaningless the evidence of the gospels really is.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A3qXQt6dYME
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KWvNjmS2C1o
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Now finally, let’s talk about the actual truth….
There really is no evidence that Jesus wasn’t completely fabricated.
You’ll repeatedly hear people say “no serious schlolar of the Jesus myth is taken seriously and believes that Jesus didn’t exist”.
a) They’re are many historians and biblical scholars who say that Jesus did not have any evidence he existed.
b) There are many biblical scholars and historians who say that Jesus did not exist.
c) There are historical biblical scholars who will tell you straight up that they know of several other biblical scholars who simply are too fearful of their careers to tell the truth that they know Jesus did not exist.
– As Hector Avalos will tell you:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=WL&v=RiiPK-FXicc
4 minute 30 second mark- Talks about how many scholars simply do not think that people can handle the truth about the bible and Jesus being made up and INVENTED.
19 minute mark-Talks about how few openly Atheist biblical scholars there are and how biblical scholars know full well that there is no archaeological evidence for any of the bible, but hide the truth.
Hector Avalos is professor of religious studies at Iowa State University and the author or editor of six books on Biblical studies and religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Avalos
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So this is the final bit of truth that people can not accept:
– There is no evidence of Jesus outside of the bible.
– There is no evidence of Jesus in the bible.
– Scholars are afraid to speak the truth and with good reason.
– Paul is not evidence of Jesus.
– Paul is no different than Joseph Smith and Mohammed
> Paul had visions of Jesus in outer space and wrote about what he said 20 years later.
> Mohammed had the angel Gabriel tell him what to write in the koran over a 20 year period.
> Joseph Smith had the angel Moroni give him the golden plates from which he translated and copied the book of mormon.
– Each one of the above stories is no more believable than the other, but are believed by millions.
– Coincidentally the people who believe in these SPECIFIC characters and stories are the ones who were child indoctrinated to specifically those characters and that specific story and RELIGION.
– If they became religious, or switched religions when older it is because they were in an emotionally vulnerable state and were exploited by that specific religion.
Let me make it easy for you:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ&feature=g-high-rec
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Some more debunking links I found along the way to check out:
http://www.bandoli.no/historicalrecords.htm
Click to access Fitzgerald2010HM.pdf
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/josephus-etal.html
http://www.skeptically.org/newtestament/id13.html
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/nohistoricalevidenceofjesus.html
http://truth-saves.com/jesus-christ
http://michaelsherlockauthor.blogspot.ca/2013/10/12-painful-facts-about-christianity.html?m=1
http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm
http://the-anointed-one.com/BBU84/biblicalstupidity/arguments.htm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pX4LvKvIWJw
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Your welcome 🙂
The Buy-bull Journal 