So @Atheist_eh has presented me with several points for me to address with several tweets. My point is that someone can only become religious if someone is “BRAINWASHED”. I have decided to respond to a few other people also.
“Brainwashed” meaning that they became brainwashed against their will and believe their religion to be true because of outside forces and manipulation.
I maintain that there is no reason to believe a religion rationally, because no religion makes any sense, are obviously lies and the evidence exposing them as lies are overwhelming and available for all the world to see.
I maintain that only a brainwashed mind could be influenced to be mentally conditioned to disregard evidence and also not listen to reasons that show their religion not to be true.
I maintain that there is more than just “cognitive dissonance” that causes people to be unable to accept the painful truth, and that religious brainwashing is what causes cognitive dissonance.
Atheist_Eh agrees with me that some religious believers are brainwashed (child indoctrinated, or exploited due to an emotional vulnerability being exploited).
He has sent me several tweets with several of his points for me to address.
So I have done so.
Tweet One:
“It’s been explained to you many times. Many theists find religion through their own devices without any external pressures.”
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Okay, first I want to say that this statement is meaningless and vague and the equivalent of “the bible proves the bible” and “how could you not believe in Jesus when he died for your sins”.
But let’s break it down:
1) He might be confusing someone deciding there is a “God” because they think that the universe is intelligently designed, or that there is some sort of evidence of intelligent design.
a) This is an opinion about the existence of a “god” which is just “deism”, not a “religion”.
b) The opinion is still based on just the existence of a “god” and not a religion.
c) This really is NOT brainwashing and is the equivalent to believing in UFOs or Big Foot (Maybe they think they have evidence of one of the 3).
d) All religions are not real and there is no evidence any religion is real.
e) Maybe someone believes in evidence of aliens, God, or Big Foot.
-(1) There still is no evidence of any religion being real.
-(2) If there were evidence of some religion being real then there would be no Atheists.
f) Studies have shown how strongly outside influences are at making someone religious with religious views:
g) As to what Atheist_Eh says about “it’s been explained to me many times…”
-(1) I have attempted to explain many times how and why all the “independent methods” people are made “religious” are irrelevant because they are simply “deism” and have nothing to do with grasping a “religion” that makes no sense and has no evidence it is true.
-(2) Atheist_Eh and others however keep saying the same things over and over though and think that simply dismissing what I say automatically makes what I say untrue simply because they refused to accept or listen and that automatically makes them right and me wrong.
-(3) If I repeatedly say that 2+2=4 and I am alone against arguing with a hundred people who refuse to listen to me and dismiss everything I say, but all continually say that 2+2=5, it does not mean that I am wrong, it simply means that they are not listening and are fuelling each others being wrong.
h) Nobody ever lists these “own devices” that are not “external pressures” however but they continually say they exist.
-(1) Deciding there is a “God” or “intelligent designer” simply implies that they have taken a deistic opinion, even if religious influences said something to convince them, a belief in a generic “God” is still not a religion.
-(2) Fearing death and finding a religion simply means that they were brainwashed to believe a religion was true which has no evidence and makes no sense, but only believe it because they were emotionally vulnerable, which is what I have always said all along.
-(3) If they fear death and grasp on to the the religion that has been made most convenient and forced down their throats because they are emotionally vulnerable, whatever religion they grasp onto is the religion they have been brainwashed to.
-(4) If they were however simply fearing death and convinced themselves that they would most likely still consciously exist after death in the universe, but just left it at that and did NOT go along with any religion, that would NOT be brainwashing, that would be an OPINION.
j) So we’re still at the point of how exactly someone finds religion “by their own devices”?
-(1) So they went to a religion on their own and did research because they were curious?
-(2) What percentage of people are being claimed to actually do this if the majority of religious people were child indoctrinated?
-(3) If there are people who suddenly go out and do research and convince themselves that a religion is real, the fact that they were convinced of complete nonsense by themselves without any outside influence as being true is highly unlikely since evidence of any religion being real, or true does not exist.
-(4) Religions are EVERYWHERE and are forced down everyone’s throat at every turn.
-(5) The fact that if the individual even had a religion to come across on their own in the first place is brainwashing since that particular religion could have been ANY RELIGION but they just happened to be exposed to THAT particular religion.
-(6) The fact that there is overwhelming evidence that shows all known religions to be untrue, but are still believed by people in the first place shows someone’s mind has been mentally conditioned and influenced to believe it.
-(7) It is completely absurd to even suggest that someone came upon religion on their own when religion is everywhere and pumped into everyone’s minds repeatedly over and over.
-(8) To say that someone came upon religion on their own and believed it, is the equivalent of saying “someone came to the conclusion that lepracauns are real, but never heard of lepracauns, or had any evidence lepracauns were real.
-(9) So looking up statistics I couldn’t see what the percentage of people who are religious because of being child indoctrinated is, but how big does Atheist_Eh think the percentage of people who are religious but weren’t child indoctrinated actually is?
-(10) If child indoctrination wasn’t allowed and children were not able to be exposed to, or introduced to any religions til they were 18, then religion would of course fade away very quickly.
-(11) This figure that Atheist_eh believes exists with a percentage of people who somehow found religion on their own and weren’t child indoctrinated and weren’t brainwashed by being expoited in an emotional vulnerability must be extremely small to the point that you have to wonder why he considers it relevant to even defend.
-(12) If someone should seekout and choose a particular religion because of the loss of a loved one that they mentally can’t deal with losing, then that is again what is called “being exploited by a religion because the person was caught in a state of emotional vulnerability.” This is being brainwashed.
So NO Atheist_Eh, people have not explained to me how someone could be religious without being brainwashed when older, but they have chosen to dismiss everything I say, including the reasons I said for dismissing what they said, but they refused to listen or accept what I said.
Tweet Two:
“Brainwashing is a systematic and concerted effort to alter a person’s thought process. This simply doesn’t happen to all theists”
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Ok so I’m still waiting on the ways implied to me that they can become religious without being brainwashed or child indoctrinated.
a) Definition of “systematic”:
http://www.yourdictionary.com/systematic
The definition of systematic is something done according to a specific system, plan or method.
-(1) Yep all religion is going according to plan.
-(2) Child indoctrinate children before they can think for themselves.
-(3) Prey upon the emotionally vulnerable and exploit all weaknesses that make them vulnerable.
-(4) Put fear into people about things that don’t exist.
-(5) Tell them that doubting their faith is the equivalent of “thought crime” and hammer it into them that all you need is faith.
-(6) Put religion everywhere and in every form of media and drill into everyone’s heads your religion over and over until eventually they are vulnerable.
(Lee Strobel and Jim Wallace are perfect examples of this)
-(7) Pump out the “better safe than sorry vibe” as much as you can.
-(8) Do and say everything you can to cause people to have emotional vulnerabilities and feel worthless.
-(9) Entice vulnerable people with “community” and feel like they only get love and belonging from that religion and all those in that religion.
-(10) Lie about evidence and say misleading over generalizations as much as possible.
-(11) Convince everyone that people can’t be happy without their religion.
-(12) Be as condescending as possible and imply that anything other than your religion is stupid.
-(13) Encourage people within your religion to make people outside of it feel like outcasts
-(14) Take complete control of the media and use every form of media to lie and mislead with.
-(15) Create entire communities of religious people and surround them with nothing but lies with no way of hearing the truth.
…..Seems pretty systematic to me.
b) Definition of “concerted”
http://www.yourdictionary.com/concerted
The definition of “concerted” is a joint effort or something coordinated with multiple parties, or something that requires a lot of effort or hard working.
… Is Atheist_Eh seriously kidding, or does he really have no idea what he is saying?
-(1) There are over 30,000 different sects of christianity alone and all of them have a huge purpose and role of seducing, misleading and brainwashing people with whatever means possible.
Matthew 28:19
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”
-(2) Door to door conversions.
-(3) Television.
-(4) Apologetics.
-(5) Internet religious people attacking non-believers on every level of severity.
-(6) Writing books on apologetics and how to mislead people.
-(7) I don’t think that Atheist_Eh has ever heard about the millions of people called “priests” who spend 100% of their time spreading their religious social parasite and trying to convert people to their specific sect.
-(8) Each of these millions of priests has hundreds of followers and some have thousands and millions of followers.
-(9) There are over 1.5 BILLION christians on Earth all working to convert and promote their poison and there are these things called “megachurches”.
-(10) Couples who are engaged to their other half will force their other halves to practice and convert and their familes of their fiances will bully them into converting.
-(11) Movies (God’s not dead, The 10 commandments)
– Every horror movie that has a reference to hell to promote fear.
-(12) Cults
-(13) An infinite number of other examples if Atheist_Eh actually thought about it and put in the effort himself.
-(14) The fact that religion has the ability to completely surround people and control peoples environment and make them feel isolated from the world unless they give you their form of freedom and their imaginary cure from an imaginary disease.
c) I’ve still yet to hear how someone can independently be converted all on their own to a religion.
-(1) A simple decision that God probably exists is NOT being brainwashed to a religion, but is simply “deism”.
-(2) This is evidence that people aren’t listening to me and I really am talking to a bunch of brick walks like the number of times I’ve told the same people that “being just a deist with just a simple OPINION a god exists IS NOT BRAINWASHING!” Yet they keep bringing it up.
d) If there is no evidence any religion is real, or has any truth and there is strong evidence that they are not true and have evidence against them…..
-(1) People who are programmed to not listen to truth and evidence and mentally conditioned to believe complete nonsense without evidence regarding the BELIEFS and background story of a religion ARE BRAINWASHED!
-(2) Cults who act insane and have insane members with insane beliefs and entice and get new members are obviously brainwashed.
-(3) Religions are simply big cults.
-(4) To those who say that cults control their victims environment by isolating them, religions simply control their victims environment on a larger scale because religions have MADE THEMSELVES the environment.
-(5) Christianity stopped being a cult the day Constantine made christianity the official religion of Rome and the church then made death penalties and torture the environment to any who refused to embrace christianity,
-(6) Islam stopped being a cult the day when it’s violence and intimidation made it grow so that all there was was an environment where all there was was islam every where you looked in some countries.
Tweet Three
“To assert that every theist became a theist through brainwashing is simply unsustainable when you consider what brainwashing really is.”
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My mind was truly blown.
a) Well we know that Atheist_Eh does believe in brainwashing and that some people are brainwashed, or child indoctrinated.
-(1) We know he believes in child indoctrination.
-(2) We know he believes that cults brainwash people.
-(3) We know he believes that some religious people are brainwashed.
-(4) What we still don’t know is what “rational” reasons someone could believe something that has no truth, makes no sense and it’s obvious it has no truth and makes no sense, without having their mind conditioned and molded without their knowledge in order to do so.
-(5) The evidence of brainwashing is when we find completely brilliant people who are undeniably brilliant and they believe these religions, but refuse to look at the evidence, or the obvious reasons why the religions are nonsense, as if a “reality perception” in the brain has simply been bipassed, or disconnected.
b) The definition of “brainwashing”
http://www.yourdictionary.com/brainwashing#americanheritage
Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.
….Alrighty then let’s break this all down then:
a) “Intensive indoctrination”
-(1) Being heavily exposed and force fed religion in every form of media 24 hours a day is pretty intense.
-(2) Having your family shove it down your throat since birth and maybe disown, or disassociate you is pretty intense.
-(3) Being in a country where non-belief is a death penalty is pretty intense.
-(4) Being hated through society because someone doesn’t believe an invisible deity exists is pretty intense.
-(5) Being in an environment that is anti-science and angrily encourages dismissing evidence is pretty intense.
-(6) Being mentally conditioned by being rewarded, praised and encouraged to embrace faith and ignoring facts is pretty intense.
-(7) Being socially molded to think that it is common sense to not use common sense, is pretty intense.
b) “Forcible indoctrination”
-(1) Not having a choice in what reality actually is growing up is pretty forceful.
-(2) Being told, then convinced you will burn in an eternity of fire is pretty forceful.
-(3) Being homeschooled and sheltered from science, evolution and actual facts is pretty forceful.
-(4) Death penalties and jail time for not believing in that countries religion are pretty forceful.
-(5) Being convinced that nonsense is not nonsense and that you are an idiot if you don’t believe is pretty forceful.
-(6) Being repeatedly filled with fear regarding eternal torture and assured that you can’t take the chance is pretty forceful.
-(7) Being over and over again drilled about how you are worthless and your life has no meaning unless you enslave yourself into worshipping and believing a ridiculous lie that makes no sense, is pretty forceful.
-(8) Being assured that the ridiculous lies you are being told are actually true, by millions of people is pretty forceful.
c) “Usually political, or religious”
-(1) Some countries are ruled under religious law (like Sharia) so yes very political, very religious.
-(2) Non-religious and secular based people are mistrusted and not allowed places in government and people are brainwashed by using religion as a tool to “demonize” secular people and secular thinking and use religion as a political tool to spread bigotry and hate.
-(3) Like the old saying goes:
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful” -Seneca
-(4) Religion is very political and used and pushed on people as a form of control.
-(5) The definition clearly says “religious” meaning that whoever wrote it interprets religion as brainwashing also.
-(6) If religion itself is defined as a form of brainwashing, then it makes sense that if someone has been labelled as “religious” that they should also be labelled as “brainwashed”.
-(7) I label religious people who are brainwashed to religion as a “condition” not an insult.
-(8) If I say someone has cancer I label them as “sick”
-(9) People can’t help that they are sick with cancer and can’t help that they are brainwashed without realizing it (though that would be nice).
d) “Aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternate set of fixed beliefs”.
-(1) Religion changes peoples views when they become religious.
-(2) Religion tells people to believe things that aren’t real.
-(3) Religion is a rule book of how to think and it discourages independent thought.
-(4) A person’s inability of independent thought is programmed into people because that is the only way that religion still can live and survive.
As Dr.House says:
“If you could reason with religious people, then there would be no religious people”
-(5) Enforcing and exploiting someones vulnerability that they can have eternal life if they give money, do rituals and dedicate themselves to a lie that has no evidence, is a pretty strong set of fixed beliefs.
-(6) For someone to believe nonsense without evidence and has strong evidence disproving it, that is something that someone has to be mentally conditioned to do.
-(7) Society is what conditions people to have to embrace a lie and use that lie as a mental crutch rather than independently recover through other means.
-(8) Religion robs people of finding inner strength or mentally dealing with the real world, by attaching themselves to a delusion.
-(9) Fixed beliefs for example would be for someone to hate gays and Atheists because their religion influenced them to do so, rather than simply treating gays as people who were simply born differently and nothing else.
Tweet Four:
“It’s not merely some measure of outside influence as I’ve seen you assert. Otherwise you’d have to accept that if you got me….”
“….To agree with you on this whole point, it was due to you brainwashing me into believing you. It just doesn’t work that way”
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Unbelievable.
a) I never said it was just outside influences that brainwash people.
-(1) It isn’t just outside influences, nor did I ever assert that but it is most likely that I simply was involved in multiple convos with the usual suspects of non listeners and it was perceived that way, but I can only say so much so many times.
-(2) The inside factors HOWEVER that play into the victims brainwashing to become religious are things like emotional vulnerabilities and fears that have been put into place through repetition from outside sources.
-(3) For someone to be brainwashed to a religion though, the person has to have something inside to exploit and needs some sort of emotional vulnerability, which could be anyone of many factors and weaknesses.
-(4) A vulnerability could be anything from fear of death, to not being able to deal with the loss of a loved one, to an overly gullible trustworthiness to certain individuals that they have been convinced could never be wrong and are never wrong.
-(5) Vulnerabilities to religion are either already there, or have been placed there against the person’s knowledge.
A great example is this short video of people who have come as “seekers” to this guru, who isn’t even a real guru (he’s a film maker and actor) and keeps telling people “that he shouldn’t be worshipped and that he is nobody.”
http://content.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,971515233001_2075202,00.html
-(6) Some people don’t ever have these vulnerabilities inside them to be brainwashed to a religion.
-(7) Some people have them inserted.
-(8) Some people are naturally born with the vulnerabilities.
-(9) Some people merely never have anyone exploit those vulnerabilities.
-(10) Some people are indoctrinated from birth and are able to shed the religious vulnerabilities that have been put into place (like myself).
-(11) Some people turn to religion because of those vulnerabilities, but then lose the vulnerabilities and might stay religious, or lose the religion.
-(12) Fears can be inserted into someone and doubts aswell, but for anyone to say that they can’t be is really being dishonest.
b) As for the point that Atheist_Eh is trying to make here regarding me brainwashing him by what I’m saying if I convince him I’m right….
-(1) I’m simply making points and telling him things that I feel are undeniable and obvious and showing him things that I feel actually PROVE my point.
-(2) I’m not inserting fears into him, or attempting to make him believe things without evidence. (These are things he can observe in people himself)
-(3) I’m listing things and showing examples while at the same time doing my best to explain differences to what he thinks I’m saying and what I actually am saying.
-(4) I’m dissecting everything down in order to help him think, not to impair his thinking.
-(5) I’m encouraging thought and showing examples, not discouraging thought and saying “all you need is faith”.
-(6) What I’m doing is trying to show him the truth by thinking for himself, but what brainwashing is would be if I were inserting things in his head that goes against his own thinking.
-(7) Some of things I said I even told him I agreed with him and corrected him on misinterpretations he had and incorrect assumptions.
-(8) Exchanging of points and breaking down information, while at the same time correcting inaccurate misinterpretations, is a lot different than as if I was trying to exploit some sort of fears, or internal vulnerabilities to enslave him to a religion.
c) I absolutely agree with Atheist_Eh because he’s right in this tweet.
-(1) It doesn’t work that way.
-(2) That wasn’t what I was saying though.
-(3) He made a wasted point, but I hope at least I’m somehow making progress.
Tweet Five
“Yes, some people are brainwashed into religion and it can happen at any stage in life, but it’s not 100% of cases”
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Well to this I say…..
a) So if he agrees that some people are brainwashed into religion, what percentage exactly is he talking about here?
-(1) Does he think that 90% of people who are religious are brainwashed? What is it I wonder?
-(2) Still waiting on how someone can become religious without being brainwashed.
-(3) Reminding everyone that becoming a deist for whatever reason is NOT brainwashing, but that becoming religious IS brainwashing.
-(4) Deism is an opinion, but religion is a life changing, delusional, mind alteration without someone knowing and against someone’s control.
b) Let’s maybe make a comparison here of this tweet to what he actually thinks, if say that most people are brainwashed to religion, but some aren’t.
-(1) Most people get killed by sharks if swimming in shark infested water in the middle of the sea if your boat sinks, but some live.
-(2) Most people die from ebola if they get infected, but some people live.
-(3) Hypothetically, if say that there really were 10% of people who were religious for rational reasons and not brainwashing, would that really need to be so strongly defended?
c) At any stage in life someone can lose their religion too and not realize, or remember the reasons they were religious in the first place.
-(1) It’s just as hard to accept that you were brainwashed in the past as it is to accept that you are brainwashed presently.
-(2) Being child indoctrinated to religion means that they were brainwashed and someone who becomes non-religious when older simply means that they are no longer brainwashed. (It happens)
-(3) Just because people do not want to accept negative things about themselves, or about their past doesn’t make them untrue.
:
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Now since I’ve addressed Atheist_Eh I will now address a couple other tweets and points while I’m at it.
@AtyHans says in his tweet:
“Maybe you should read on Skinner’s pigeon experiment which revealed signs of superstition”
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I will address it even though it’s irrelevent but I will say that I really respect Hans a lot and admire all the work he puts in and commitment. But he has brought up the pigeon thing more than once, so I feel I should address it.
a) I know all about Skinners pigeons and talked about them in school a couple semesters ago.
b) The pigeons were simply wondering what caused them to get food and knew what would.
c) They wanted food and were willing to experiment with doing different things to cause a response to get that food.
d) A pigeon’s thinking is very limited and it doesnt know how it gets food, just that it does and by the pigeon experimenting in doing rituals and trying different actions and behaviors, that is the pigeons mind and body acting on survival instinct on doing whatever it can to keep it alive.
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Now a response to @BrianConelly13 from a few months ago when he mentioned three people who became religious through rational means and weren’t brainwashed.
Brian lists Immanuel Kant, Thomas Aquinas and Alvin Plantiga.
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My mind is again blown.
a) Immanuel Kant was a phillsopher from a jewish household who became agnostic and stop being religious.
(1) Completely irrelevant.
(2) Has nothing to do with an example of a religious person becoming religious by rational means and not being brainwashed into religion.
(3) Shows the exact opposite where someone used logic and facts to free themselves from being brainwashed since birth.
b) Thomas Aquinas was a philosopher priest from around 900 years ago who was child indoctrinated since birth to christianity and revolved his life around a nonsensical lie being actual history.
-(1) Child indoctrination to nonsensical lies is brainwashing.
-(2) This is nothing but an example of someone who was brainwashed their whole life to religion and continued to be viewed as intelligent to people, who would then fuel other people’s brainwashing because they actually believed he knew what he was talking about.
c) Alvin Plantiga is a christian philosopher who believes in intelligent design and has made philosophical claims against evolution and good and evil.
-(1) So Plantiga has an argument for deism, this is true and Brian is right that this is not brainwashing.
-(2) He is still a child indoctrinated christian who believes christianity and the bible to be mostly true.
-(3) The entire history of the bible is untrue, proven to be untrue, along with having several other complications like forgeries and contradictions and cannot be believed by anyone who has not had their brain messed with through various forms of conditioning.
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And then there is Martin Luther who was brought up to me several times as being evidence of someone rationally becoming religious and not brainwashed.
The story goes that Luther was afraid of getting struck by lightning in a lightning storm one day and swore out loud that if he lived he would become a monk.
a) Luther was child indoctrinated to religion which means he was brainwashed to it since birth.
b) He himself said that he feared judgement after death, which is why he made the decision to make a pact to become a monk.
c) This is nothing but evidence that a brainwashed lunatic who had documented mental disorders like washing his hands hundreds of times a day and thinking that jews should be put to death, was a child indoctrinated slave of a lie who was dumb enough to give up a life as a lawyer.
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Then we have @crispybroccoli who for some reason thinks that if a god were to exist that it would more than likely be the “christian god” and that this is supposed to count as “evidence” for christians.
a) This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life since Crispybroccoli is an Atheist.
-(1) The only thing dumber than him saying this, was the fact that there were some other Atheists agreeing with him.
-(2) Atheists agreeing “that if there were a god it would most likely be the christian god” is truly mind-blowing.
b) Crispybroccoli thinks that because of this little piece of “evidence” that christians aren’t really brainwashed.
-(1) Even though christianity is completely proven to be untrue and simply made up of plagarized stories and fictional stories that contradict each other and go against history.
-(2) Even though they are child indoctrinated to these lies or became religious while older by having an emotional vulnerability exploited.
-(3) My mind is truly blown.
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And finally I’d like to add and explain a few things about myself and some of the things I say and the way I say them.
1) Religion is a disease that is destroying society and the world.
2) Atheists defending religion by saying it isn’t brainwashing is as big of a problem as religion itself.
– It makes people think that it isn’t as much of a problem as it is and that religion is rational and harmless.
3) I see the world being destroyed and innocent people being hurt and the world being set back morally and rationally and I am doing my best to fight the insanity.
4) People treating religious people like what they’re saying is normal and sane is not helping.
– No I’m not saying to be mean, or rude, or even disrespectful.
– Simply saying that treating religion should really be no different than someone who says they have a talking invisible elephant as their best friend.
5) I don’t wish anyone harmed, or killed, just reasoned with, so they can help spread their reason to help wake up other people to reality.
The Buy-bull Journal 